Dragon

Don't want the next leftist revolution to take notes from North Korea.

Fortunately, no. But leftists really need to band together internationally, not divide along Nationalist lines. Blaming people for their government is the kind of logic that is used to justify the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

What country is that

It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy.

I don't understand the point of arguing with people pointing out that there is censorship in China if you are pro-censorship.

Accusing me of being a troll while excluding the next sentence.

No worries, honest difference of opinion. I think open discourse is helpful for overcoming bigotry.

It really doesn't need to be a contest between those two.

you’re not even factoring in the taean system at the factory level.

There is only so much room on the canvas, but Chongsanri and Taean seem to be based on similar principles as the rest of the government.

permanently negative, endlessly “skeptical” stance

I don't mean to be only negative. There are great things about places like the USSR, China, Cuba, and probably North Korea too. However, I think that is due to the benefits of Platonic Aristocracy, not Socialism.

It reeks of chauvanism

You keep saying that I can't expect non-western countries to have "western" democracy. It sounds like you're saying only white people can have democracy. While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren't that democratic. I would look to more radical forms, like DAANES, and urge the continued research into possible undiscovered strategies.

and “left” anti-communism.

I didn't realize Lemmy was so anti-left.

parties should be able to expel corrupt or poorly-performing members. You can’t have your cake and eat it here too, either parties have to be open and thus vulnerable to the corruption you keep hinting that they may have, or they need mechanisms for preventing such problems and dealing with them as they arise. Again, “left” anti-communism.

This is why you kept getting quoted Gramsci’s teardown of Bordiga

I'd never read Bordiga's writings before, but I find his critique insightful:

The same process will take place in Italy as in other capitalist countries. Against the advance of the working class, a coalition of all the reactionary elements will form, from the fascists to the Popular Party and the socialists: actually, the socialists will become the vanguard of the anti-proletarian reaction because they know best the weaknesses of the working class.

That is exactly what happened. Mussolini himself was originally a socialist, and members of the Popular Party joined his government.

If there were a bunch of anti-slavery memes, would having a pro-slavery meme be justified in the name of “balance?”

The pro-DPRK memes aren't anti-slavery, they are pro-slavery.

your critique is “sterile and negative,” it offers no solutions and only spreads doubt and division.

Challenge accepted, I will try to make a meme that offers solutions, and I expect no negativity in response, as that isn't comradely.

Read...what pro-socialist groups are saying.

Pro-socialist, or pro-DPRK? If a group is critical of the DPRK do you consider it to be not socialist?

The problem here is that you are assuming the opposite, that a socialist state is anti-democratic and is oppressing its citizens for no reason.

Making a democratic state is hard. All the (limited, biased) evidence points toward an oppressive state in North Korea. Forgive me if I suspect there might be some grain of truth in it.

I understand what control is, I have yet to see you make a compelling argument for why we should abandon the Marxist understanding of class. You kept trying to invent the idea of an administrator class, but experience shows that the Marxist understanding of class is correct, that the state is representative of the ruling class in society, and not outside of that.

It is such a great tragedy that Marx never finished "The State". So many Marxists' understanding of political power is skin-deep.

I do think it is deliberate. Before Wikipedia was blocked, you specifically could not visit the page on Tiananmen Square.

Do you disagree that sources discussing it it are deliberately blocked?

I stand corrected, you can learn about it through official channels. I did not attend Chinese university. However, its mention is filtered by the firewall.

The US is not famous for the integrity of it's democracy, but almost anything is better than this.

The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.

Yea, candidates are generally chosen from a broader group than this implies

Candidates can be selected from non-party members, but they are absolutely selected by the party members, and after nomination are assigned a party.

your meme puts a negative twist on literally every aspect for no reason whatsoever.

The reason is humor. That, and I feel negatively.

membership of political parties isn’t private and locked down, you can join political parties.

You can join any political party you want in the same sense that you can work for any company you want in a Bourgeois society. That is, you can join if they want you to.

I don’t know what your deal is,

My deal is that I'm interested in how a bunch of Communists convinced themselves to support undemocratic political structures. I have read some Lenin and Mao, but its not the same as engaging with people who really believe in it. We're all people, and ones with ostensibly similar political aims, and yet we came to such different conclusions.

you keep making vaguely targeted memes

there have recently been so many pro-DPRK memes, will you not begrudge me a few critical memes?

after getting called out for the same error of taking your personal fears of mishandling and turning them into percieved reality.

From where am I to learn about "reality"? Not personal testimony, not by reading legal documents, not by thinking about the consequences of consolidated political power? Am I to assume that a state doesn't oppress its citizens and is democratic merely because it purports to be inspired by the teachings of Karl Marx?

Same with your repeated idea of a “political class,” where you erase the concept of class as it relates to ownership of the means of production and twist it into meaning “type of job.”

Either you do not understand what control is, or you refuse to acknowledge a class not mentioned in the writings of Friedrich Engels.

Copying over a comment I gave for you

Yes, I read the book. Thank you. It was a little out of date, but overall informative.

I never once worried about the ability of North Koreans to have a western haircut. That said, it's not that outlandish of an idea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard_and_haircut_laws_by_country

As to mass enslavement, no one is denying that they have universal conscription.

The claims being so extraordinary also means we need extraordinary evidence to believe them

There's nothing extraordinary about a state oppressing it's people. The existence of a state that doesn't oppress it's people should require extraordinary evidence to believe.

you assume a priori that it isn't

I'm open to the idea that is is, but all the evidence I've seen this far indicates that it isn't, and no one has given evidence that it is

Not all discourse has to be so hostile my guy. It's ok to have questions, hesitations, and confidence levels in-between 0 and 100. It's not hard to find testimonies. As I've said I genuinely don't know how to determine which, if any, are unbiased.

What do you mean by this?

I'm still learning about it, but it seems to be based, similar to the USSR and China, in trust that the government will take into consideration the opinion of the masses, as opposed to a direct lever of control.

Expats like Yeonmi Park?

I have seen her speak, and she is obviously pulling stories out of her ass. But she is far from the only person with stories of oppression.